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WHO advises people over 60, + those with comorbidity factors......and 61 passengers tested positive.

affinity4aviation

Active member
The WHO's suggestion is based on their wanting to learn more about the omicron virus, before it spreads to the most vulnerable. I wonder when will the virus will stop affecting certain travel, + taking a toll on the airline industry? 600 passengers off of 2 flights from South Africa, were kept at Amsterdam's Schiphol Airport for 16 hours to get tested. They were told they'd been exposed;
61/600 tested positive. Accepting that the virus will do its Darwinian thing is imminent. Many healthcare workers have struggled physically + psychologically + realize it's a marathon, not a sprint.
 
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Plague

Active member
The WHO's suggestion is based on their wanting to learn more about the omicron virus, before it potentially spreads to who they say is more vulnerable. I wonder when will the virus + it's various strains will stop potentially affecting certain travel, + taking a toll on the airline industry?
What WHO suggestion is that?

It's already on its way to vulnerable people - it's been more or less simultaneously detected in people all round the globe and some cases predate the South African announcement. Since PCR testing and subsequent gene sequencing of only a proportion of positives takes time, it's probably already within a few miles of everyone on the planet (except maybe China who are still in a kind of lockdown).

When will we stop being in a panic over it? When we accept that it's like flu and auto accidents - being alive means dying sometime, but we have vaccines and seat-belts to mitigate the risks.
Do we want to live in a bomb-shelter and die of boredom, or enjoy life and chance it. At some point people have to be allowed to make that choice, but each society will have a different 'tolerance'. (This is where one can get into "What value can you put on a human life?" discussions.) And at that point it's political ...
 

MsHighAltitude

Administrator
Staff member
The difference is flu and auto accidents don’t overwhelm our healthcare systems and force providers to ration care. As long as a fair share of the population refuses to get vaccinated, the virus will continue to spread and mutate, so sooner or later there will be a variant that’s immune to the vaccines. Then we are back at square one. On the aviation side, I wonder if Cathay will be the first major airline to go because of this.
 

Plague

Active member
The difference is flu and auto accidents don’t overwhelm our healthcare systems and force providers to ration care. As long as a fair share of the population refuses to get vaccinated, the virus will continue to spread and mutate, so sooner or later there will be a variant that’s immune to the vaccines.
Well, actually flu does cause problems every year. It varies a lot but for the US it's typically several 10s of thousands of deaths and around half a million hospitalisations. Covid is 'worse' but also replaces many of those flu deaths.

Likewise flu mutates most years. They make the annual vaccines according to what they predict will be next winter's common strains. The years with high rates of death/illness are often the ones where the prediction was off. It may be a few years, but that is almost certainly where we are going with covid.

Again, like flu, the disease will gradually kill off those who are vulnerable - including those who cannot or will not take a vaccine. They are going to be the lame animals in the herd.

Because it's new covid is causing a lot of irritation, but in the long term it is just another illness that we will live with.
 

Zeede

Administrator
Staff member
@Plague I agree that at this point, COVID is probably going to become endemic. The problem is that it overwhelms the medical system.

Just a couple of months ago at the hospital my friend works at they had a guy come into the ER complaining of chest pain. Since they're understaffed (and overworked) they had no triage nurses, so they had him sit down in the ER waiting room. Awhile later a Physician's Assist goes out to check on him and finds him dead in his seat. She broke down in tears and just simply walked out of the hospital to collect herself. It's been like this for months.

Another guy's wife was back in the hospital for complications from her chemotherapy. They said she would be there for 3 or 4 days, but on the morning of the 2nd day they kicked her out because they needed her bed for a COVID patient. He posted a very angry (rightfully so) Tik Tok telling anti-vaxxers that if you "think it's flu" then take some NyQuil and stay home when you get COVID. Don't come running to the doctors and nurses that you disregarded when they told you how to protect yourself from COVID, after you get COVID.

This isn't just "causing a lot of irritation".

I would like us to get to the "long term" you describe, but in the meantime, refusal to wear masks and get vaccinated only prolongs this sucky place we're at now, and worse, the unvaccinated are basically variant factories. If we get unlucky, a new variant will spawn that negates some or all of the vaccine protections we have now.

Please tell your friends and loved ones to get vaccinated. I would be *overwhelmed with joy* for this thing to be over, and to crowd into small confined spaces to talk about your freedoms that have been impinged upon :)
 

Plague

Active member
The problem is that it overwhelms the medical system.
Yes, I understand that - probably better than you realize as in the UK we regularly have patients stuck in ambulances outside the hospital because it's full. That has knock on effects as those ambulances and crews can't go help anyone else. Quite a few people are dying because of this.

But in the longer term we will deal with that, partly through reducing the effects and prevalence of covid and partly (I hope) by investing more in our health service to provide more capacity. It's not an overnight thing though.

As to those refusing vaccination or taking any precautions I'm not sure there's any point in trying to convince them. We've had 'discussions' over Brexit, you had them over Trump and they always end up with anger and entrenchment - expecting anti-vaccers to be any different is unrealistic.
Don't get me wrong here ... I think they are idiots and the people that believe them are mugs, but a substantial portion of the human race are idiots or mugs (or both), so it's to be expected.

As to irritation - it's irritating the hell out of me ;)
 

affinity4aviation

Active member
What WHO suggestion is that?

It's already on its way to vulnerable people - it's been more or less simultaneously detected in people all round the globe and some cases predate the South African announcement. Since PCR testing and subsequent gene sequencing of only a proportion of positives takes time, it's probably already within a few miles of everyone on the planet (except maybe China who are still in a kind of lockdown).

When will we stop being in a panic over it? When we accept that it's like flu and auto accidents - being alive means dying sometime, but we have vaccines and seat-belts to mitigate the risks.
Do we want to live in a bomb-shelter and die of boredom, or enjoy life and chance it. At some point people have to be allowed to make that choice, but each society will have a different 'tolerance'. (This is where one can get into "What value can you put on a human life?" discussions.) And at that point it's political ...
Well said + I agree 100%. It's overreaching in people's personal life at this point.
The difference is flu and auto accidents don’t overwhelm our healthcare systems and force providers to ration care. As long as a fair share of the population refuses to get vaccinated, the virus will continue to spread and mutate, so sooner or later there will be a variant that’s immune to the vaccines. Then we are back at square one. On the aviation side, I wonder if Cathay will be the first major airline to go because of this.
You get it.
@Plague I agree that at this point, COVID is probably going to become endemic. The problem is that it overwhelms the medical system.

Just a couple of months ago at the hospital my friend works at they had a guy come into the ER complaining of chest pain. Since they're understaffed (and overworked) they had no triage nurses, so they had him sit down in the ER waiting room. Awhile later a Physician's Assist goes out to check on him and finds him dead in his seat. She broke down in tears and just simply walked out of the hospital to collect herself. It's been like this for months. P
Another guy's wife was back in the hospital for complications from her chemotherapy. They said she would be there for 3 or 4 days, but on the morning of the 2nd day they kicked her out because they needed her bed for a COVID patient. He posted a very angry (rightfully so) Tik Tok telling anti-vaxxers that if you "think it's flu" then take some NyQuil and stay home when you get COVID. Don't come running to the doctors and nurses that you disregarded when they told you how to protect yourself from COVID, after you get COVID.

This isn't just "causing a lot of irritation".
I would like us to get to the "long term" you describe, but in the meantime, refusal to wear masks and get vaccinated only prolongs this sucky place we're at now, and worse, the unvaccinated are basically variant factories. If we get unlucky, a new variant will spawn that negates some or all of the vaccine protections we have now. Please tell your friends and loved ones to get vaccinated. I would be *overwhelmed with joy* for this thing to be over, and to crowd into small confined spaces to talk about your freedoms that have been impinged upon :)
Thanks for your bravery in speaking up. You said what I'm reticent to, as I'm a healthcare worker who has to be careful what I say about it. I agree w/ you on vaccinations; it makes the outcome less severe. Yet, I respect those who don't like gov't agencies mandating what to put in their body. Many healthcare workers have worked marathon shifts in a locked unit, incl. myself, not allowed to leave for a meal break, due to cross contamination. You see death after a plethora of caregiving, that it affects sleep + has psychological effects, like mental exhaustion. The system can't handle the volume, + places cut costs. Many workers are burned out physically + emotionally + get stress headaches. It's not just drama on the news, it's real. Everyone should realize that they need to boost their immune system, as relying on our cost cutting healthcare system is a Pandoras Box. Nearly everywhere is understaffed; Plague is correct.
 
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Plague

Active member
The system can't handle the volume, + places cut costs. Many workers are burned out physically + emotionally
And this is what needs to be fixed, though sadly there isn't a quick way of doing it.

It's overreaching in people's personal life at this point.
It's a tricky one. For example, I think mandatory vaccines (as the the head of the EU Commission is advocating) is a step too far. OTOH restricting access to services (like bars, cinemas flights) to those who have been vaccinated, or have a valid medical reason to not be, would be reasonable. I mean, if you don't pass a driving test you don't get to drive (legally), so there is precedent in a way.
 

Plague

Active member
Well did you call yourself a mug?
I've certainly been duped in my lifetime, but I'd never believe anything on social media without checking it elsewhere ... not that I use social media for anything much. That's my wife's domain, so I have to point out to her on a regular basis that the 'amazing' thing on her screen or that she has sent me is high grade BS or a scam.
My default setting is cynical :)
 

affinity4aviation

Active member
It's a tricky one. For example, I think mandatory vaccines (as the head of the EU Commission is advocating) is a step too far. OTOH restricting access to services, (like bars, cinemas + flights), to those who have been vaccinated, or have a valid medical reason to not be, would be reasonable. I mean, if you don't pass a driving test you don't get to drive (legally), so there is precedent in a way.
You + MsHighAltitude get it. We all need to live our lives + put thinking about the virus on the back burner. Like Soneari said, "Let's go flying!" Best advice ever! Above the clouds there is sunshine! MsHA said she wants to go skiing! Sounds fantastic! We all should consider watching a Warren Miller ski film + get our minds on positive activities!
 
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Plague

Active member
It's already on its way to vulnerable people - it's been more or less simultaneously detected in people all round the globe
Two days later and 10 US States have confirmed Omicron cases.

Very, very early research seems to suggest it is more transmissible than Delta, but it may be less harmful. Which is hopeful, and makes sense from a survival (of the virus) point of view.

But we'll see if that really is the case about Christmas time I guess :)
 

Sonerai

Active member
Who cares, if you are healthy, live your life, if not be careful. To heck with the tyrants and all the scaredy cats. Good grief. Let's go flying. No masks needed if I am PIC
 

MsHighAltitude

Administrator
Staff member
Well one positive (no pun intended) aspect of the pandemic is that a lot of people get to work from home now. Would never have happened otherwise.
 

Plague

Active member
Who cares, if you are healthy, live your life, if not be careful. To heck with the tyrants and all the scaredy cats. Good grief. Let's go flying. No masks needed if I am PIC
In a way I agree, but life is seldom that simple.
As was mentioned earlier a lot of serious illness puts pressure on the health care system. You may think you are healthy, but if you suffer a sudden heart attack or stroke, or get diagnosed with cancer or something serious, that pressure could have a significant effect on your outcome - and it would not be a good effect.
I'm still pretty healthy, I think, but I don't take it for granted. "There but for the grace of god go I". (I'm not religious; that's just a neat way to explain it.)
 
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